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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 8, 2010 5:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Few have agreed with me about 12/7; I always mention it...well, I used to anyhow.

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 8, 2010 9:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Agreed how? As in you like it or dislike it? Overall that show isn't too high on my list for favorites from 68, but it's saving grace has always been the dreamy Dark Star, and primarily the New Potato. I really like Phil's work on that one, and I REALLY like the buildup section of the jam where it's really quiet, then Garcia comes in with that repetitive looping sequence that is hard to explain but that anyone who loves a good NPC knows what I'm talking about.

Of course 12/7 is most famous for the Rosemary, but I like the stage banter most of all, myself. From the amusing part about how one of the drummer's "uh, broke down," to the insightful banter encouraging the crowd to not pay such strict attention and dance if they want to. I always found that interesting in comparison to just 2 months earlier at the Avalon where Garcia tells people they can do what they want, that they don't have to feel pressured to dance, with Garcia sarcastically telling the crowd to "give up your bodies, everybody!" I imagine the crowd at a Grateful Dead concert at a small college in Kentucky in 1968 was much different than the San Francisco crowd. I wish more of October/November was captured and/or preserved, especially the colleges (an upgrade for 11/22 would be fantastic, wouldn't it?).

On that note when oh when will we ever find that first set to 11/1/68? Didn't Latvala play a Viola Lee from that set once somewhere? And clearly the announcer alludes to there having been a previous set by the Dead. Wishful thinking, I suppose, as we're lucky to have what we do have, which is pretty screwed up as it is.

Anyway, I forgot about the New Potato's from 67. The one from the Shrine is probably the best, imo. "5/5" is a fun one, the August one from Canada is pretty good, too, and October at Winterland is decent. But my vote goes to the Shrine version.

As for the early 68's, you really can't find a weak one in the whole bunch. Sure some are better than others, but you never walk away disappointed after listening to any of those shows. I'll have to pay extra attention to the one from 3/29 you mentioned, for some reason that show never gets much play around here. Same with 3/17. Of course it's a bit harder to give actual dates for the NPC's from Jan/Feb, as in the last year or so since the Road Trips came out now we have much more information on the Jan/Feb 68 shows and how they all fit together, after having been mislabled over the years.

I can't remember any of the "Mystery Reel" versions sticking out, although for some reason people still haven't corrected the dates on those. I did some "research" on those years ago and I posted in a few places some of the actual dates that I found upon comparison. I believe it was 3 of them that are actually from other well-known shows. It's been a while since I did that, but I think this is how it breaks down...

One of the reels is actually from 2/3/68. Check it out, it's exactly the same. I think this is the one here, accd to Deadlists...

BAND Grateful Dead
VENUE unknown
CITY unknown
STATE unknown
DATE ??/??/68
SET1 Cryptical Envelopment [#1:06] > The Other One [2:31] > Cryptical Envelopment [3:30] > New Potato Caboose [8:41] ; It Hurts Me Too [#4:05] ; Born Cross-Eyed [3:08#]

COMMENTS The date and location of this recording are unknown. There is no Drums after the first Cryptical, The Other One has the standard lyrics, but Bobby stumbles with them as on 2-3-68. This recording is probably very close to that date.


One of the others is actually from 8/21/68. It's this one...

BAND Grateful Dead
VENUE unknown
CITY unknown
STATE unknown
DATE ??/??/68
SET1 Cryptical Envelopment [#0:39] > The Other One [5:24] > Cryptical Envelopment [9:37] > Good Morning Little Schoolgirl [14:49] ; Dark Star[#13:33] > St. Stephen [3:34] > The Eleven [12:09] > Death Don't Have No Mercy [8:%07] ; Turn On Your Lovelight [9:48#]
SET2
SET3
ENCORE
COMMENTS The date and location of this recording are unknown. It begins with a cut right into the "doesn't seem to matter" line in Cryptical Envelopment. There is a six second or so drum solo intro to The Other One. At the "one man gathers what another man spills" break in St. Stephen, Jerry and maybe two others laugh, but there are not really any words.
RECORDING 78 SBD



And another one of them is the snippit from the Alligator>Caution jam from 2/15/69. Though this mislabled version sounds much cleaner, as though from a reel master, whereas the more common version sounds muddier, almost like a cassette master, or at least a couple of analog generations in there.

BAND Grateful Dead
VENUE unknown
CITY unknown
STATE unknown
DATE ??/??/68
SET1 Drums [#1:30]> Jam [13:59] > Caution [1:07#]
SET2
SET3
ENCORE
COMMENTS The date and location of this recording are unknown. Its hard to say for sure, but it sounds like late 1968 - maybe September or October or thereabouts. The Drums has that Bol scat "Ya, Ya, Yakita, Yakita" in it.
RECORDING 17 SBD



So that leaves only 3 of the "mystery reels" as being "genuine." The three would be the one with the "newer" arrangement of New Potato, with Lesh solo included (aside from the hybrid version from King's Beach on 2/24/68) and the Alligator>Caution, the one that cuts in with the long St. Stephen jam into a Cryptical>Other One>Cryptical>Lovelight, and the one with the "It's in the book" banter with Morning Dew, Hurts Me Too, Dark Star>St. Stephen (the long version)>Lovelight. The rest are just mislabels. Check them out if you don't believe me.

I dunno how I got on that, the main point is for me, New Potato is a great song, in any year and in any arrangement. It's the classic '68 tune that represents everything about 1968 GD. Quirky, intense, psychedelic, and like anything from 1968, it never lets you down.

This post was modified by Jim F on 2010-09-09 04:43:54

This post was modified by Jim F on 2010-09-09 04:44:51

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 9, 2010 2:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

WT does like 12/7/68, as he's mentioned many a time! Though like you, I don't think he puts it in the "top" of '68 (that would be a show later in the month....)

And, someone else has corrected the dates in the mystery-reels set....me! (Following up on your 2004 post.)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd68-xx-xx.sbd.vernon.9426.sbeok.shnf

My big regret about New Potato is that what should have been three of our best versions (10/12, 10/13, and 11/1/68) are ALL incomplete for one reason or another.
But anyway, I've gone on at length about New Potato...
http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2009/08/new-potato-caboose.html

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 9, 2010 11:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Ha I forgot I made that post. I knew I had mentioned it SOMEwhere, guess it was here. As usual, you went above and beyond to set the details straight. You're truly one of the tape collecting world's greatest resources, LIA.

Oh I know, the cuts on 10/12-13/68 are such a tragedy! It's almost ironic that what are probably the only 2 Grateful Dead shows with the exact same setlist (and back to back, no less!) have pretty much the exact same cuts in them. I also alluded to the shame that is 11/1/68. I don't care about the attenuated, hissy portion, I still listen to it all anyway. I remember when I first found the "full" recording, in my deadbase next to the date I still have written "FINALLY circulates almost complete!!! (7/03)" No matter what the source, that's one you're always going to enjoy anytime you put it on. I still just wish we knew more about that rumoured first set. Does anyone remember where that story came from about Latvala playing a Viola Lee that was supposedly from the first set from 11/1? I think it was at one of those "vault parties" or the Garcia Memorial or something. Of course that was well over 10 years ago, no doubt he played something that has since come out with more detailed source and date information.

Earlier tonight I pulled out my copies of 10/28/72, and listened to the one that has the little 3 minute explanation from Dick about the Philo Stomp. I wish I had gotten to meet that man. I remember when that 10/28/72 excerpt originally aired on the GD Hour. I had advanced notice on what would be played on that episode, and was bursting with anticipation, as I'd never heard that DStar nor the Philo Jam...then hearing Dick's buildup before those first few notes of Dark Star begin...There's nothing like discovering a new gem, is there? I remember feeling similarly when I first heard the St. Louis show from the Fox with the Philo from 10/18/72. I am a native St. Louisan and love the Fox, I have a few "older head" friends who saw shows here dating back to 1968. But I can't pin any of them down as having been at that infamous show on October 18th. I think one of them was there, he has some great stories about shows at the Fox and I always press him for details, esp about the 10/18 show, but anytime I mention a St. Louis Dark Star from the early 70's all he can remember is a spinning mirror reflecting beams of light all around the room.

Anyway, it's always amusing to visit the page for the Cotsman source (18100) of 11/1/68 where that loony toon calls a bunch of us nazi communist stalkers. Never would I have thought writing one simple sentence referring people to another source would have put me on the receiving end of THAT lol. Anyway I sure do wish we had more of that New Potato, judging from the rest of the show (same with 10/12+13/68), you really get the feeling that it could have been one of the greatest of the year.

I've been reading this forum for like 10 years and generally check it pretty much every day, though I only chime in every once in a while. But I've gotten to know some of the regulars' specific tastes and favorites (yes, I regularly read all of the amusing things you crazies say to and about each other). Correct me if I'm wrong but is Mr. Tell's favorite '68 show 12/29/68? I remember discussing that show on here once, and how I've never been as hyped up about that one as others are. I think I remember him defending it's version of The Eleven as being the highlight that makes the show the best of the year. I myself am a huge 68 freak, it was perhaps my first true love as a collector, but I personally wouldn't rank 12/29 very high on my list. It's good stuff, don't get me wrong, but there are at least 5 shows offhand that I can think of that I'd take over 12/29.

But I don't want to get into that whole thing about how subjective this music is, I already did that recently on Workingman's Tracker in a discussion on 2/27/77 (I was really taken aback that people who were at both shows found 2/27 to be the real burner over 2/26). Besides, it would just devolve into a big argument of why 1992 is the best year ever and why 1968 or 1973 "suck." Those are arguments I never participate in, it's like debating religion or politics, you can't debate personal tastes and preferences, all it does is entrench people further into their own positions and nobody ever changes anybody's mind. I prefer to maintain a mutual respect for each other's likes and dislikes.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 10, 2010 10:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Sorry, Jim; missing your posts here while blathering on about social aspects, changing fanbase, etc.

To clarify, I love 12-7 in spite of the techno glitches, esp the NPC and the high bass/drum rolling intro to StSt. Really enjoy the parts of that show, and the banter, that come thru clearly without cuts.

And to expound on 12-29, as LiA notes, it's solely the OOne with the unworldly sounds and speed and energy with absurdly extended "notes", feedback tinged, that JG produces that really grab me...I rarely listen to the rest of that show. The Eleven is good, but I take 2-11-69, the night before CLIFF's fav of 2-12, as my all time fav of that number.

Disregard everything else, and becareful of going directly to CM's version (digi noise has been introduced to this track alone), and play the OOne, which is usu trk 6 on the various versions of the show in circulation...I have 3-5 that appear different, though I am not the proper historian to have sorted out the different lineages (all I know is the final product, and over the yrs it seems on trk numbering, fade ins and outs, etc., that I collected a minimum of three slightly diff sounding versions).

Bottom line is just focus on that OOne a few times and you'll see why I love it, and thus the show. But overall, I'd pick a show from Aug or Oct if I were to say "best overall show" of 68, while acknowledging nothing can touch the OOne, IMHO, of the 29th.

EDIT: whoops--your query: many have not seemed to think the show is all that worthy of attn, but I may be overstating that...just a feeling I have about having mentioned it in the past, and the lowkey responses...?

This post was modified by William Tell on 2010-09-10 17:27:49

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 11, 2010 1:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Ah, no need for apologies, not long ago I myself got hung up on writing up rants about the social aspects/changing fanbase stuff.

My bad, it was The Other One, not The Eleven. I really need to pull that one out again, it's been a long time.

You know, I have also often claimed that despite it's shortness and lack of vocals, you really can't find a better Eleven than 2/11/69. It's one of those ones you know by heart, ya know? I'll never forget buying that release on Halloween of 1997, back then I didn't have quite the collection I have today and I'd never really thought anything could match up with Live/Dead. Then 2/11 came along. I must have played that thing thousands of times. Speaking of the date and of The Eleven, as well as the subjectivity of GD music, I just cannot understand how one could put 2/12 so high on their list. Sorry, Cliff! I just don't hear the magic on that one like you do so many others (ie 2/11). To each his own, though!

It was the release of 2/11 that sent me off on a mission to collect every minute of Caution ever played (the halfass allusions to it that came post-74 don't count, though I think I have all of those as well). To this day, that Eleven>Caution is one of my most beloved moments of recorded GD history. I remember for years trying to find 2/5/69, it being one of the only other listings in Deadbase for an Eleven into Caution (3/17 and 10/20/68 being the only other, and excellent, versions that I can think of), and being so disappointed by it, mostly because of the brutal cut in one of the most essential, or my most favorite anyway, parts of Caution, the fanning intro. For me, ever since 2/11 came out, I've put every Caution up to comparison with it, and I dunno if any have ever met the standard (ok ok, if you catch me on a day when I've listened to any of a half dozen or so of them that are high rankers, I'd probably change that statement, but RIGHT NOW, nothing tops 2/11). I don't know what it was about 2/11 inspired them that night. Though they were limited Avalon style to such short sets and couldn't quite stretch out like they would a few weeks later at the Fillmore, I think the time constraints, as well as it being the New York audience and all the backstory surrounding Janis, just brought out the magic that night. Moreso in the late show, the early show is very nice but doesn't excel in the ways the late show does.

As I hadn't yet become the obsessive collector I would be just a short time later, I don't think I appreciated the immensity of the 2/11 release then like I would if something of it's kind were to come out now. That must have blown everyone's minds, like when Two From the Vault came out. Back then I didn't have the internet, torrenting was still years away (FTP servers were barely even on the radar), and while not my only source, I didn't have many connections and my primary resource for new material was through recording the GD Hour, which in St. Louis was followed by another hour of GD material played by the local DJ's on one of St. Louis' finest contributions to music (no, not Nelly), public radio station KDHX. Unfortunately KDHX had to drop the GD Hour a while back, the GD Hour was the only program they had to pay for, and KDHX being completely funded by listener support, they just couldn't afford to keep it on anymore. They still do a couple hours of GD music, though, it's just not the official Gans version.

Anyway, I have a couple versions of 12/29, I definitely had it pre-Millerized (probably from TOL back in the day). That's odd that a Miller source would introduce flaws, usually his product REMOVES the OLD flaws. Weird. At any rate I will pull it out soon.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 11, 2010 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Ah, music to my ears! The love of 2-11! Perhaps we've spoken of it before, but I've few memories of anyone jumping in with me on that one (of course, as tunes go, it was one that often was done "well", if you follow, and almost always "okay"...as opposed to say StSt, which morphed so dramatically between Jun 68 and Aug 71 that one struggles with the different approaches to the song by the boys as well as "off night/on night", much less sound quality...if you follow me...? I suppose the simplistic notion is that the Eleven was generally a song played in a consistent fashion.

I in part really like 2-11 because as I may have told you, my eldest son, the music man in the family, who tolerates my "you must hear this!" better than any other family members, was the one to say "uh, pops...the eleven you're playing right now is not as good as this one you played for me a month or so ago" and then he pulled out the 2-11 show!

I was shocked and proud at the same time.

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 12, 2010 3:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

I think I remember reading about that Eleven story with your son. I probably just didn't chime in on that thread. Like I said somewhere in this thread, longtime reader, but I only comment when I get the urge or "if I have the time."

Yeah, I don't think I've ever not liked an Eleven. Though it had such a short life, it did go through it's own transformations (though not as drastically as your example of St. Stephen), and I love them all. From the totally raw versions of early 68, to the faster and more developed versions later in the year, to the more "standard" approach with it's usual themes heard in early 69, to the slowed down, bouncy, groovin' versions of late 69/early 1970. Every one's a winner in my book. Though I still don't hear why 3/1/69 ranks so high in listener polls. Sure, the fun, brief little jam of Garcia with Billy at the end is really cool, but the version is like the shortest one on record, and doesn't really go very far. Nothing like 2/28/69 or 8/24/68 or or 2/5/70 or anything else along those lines.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 12, 2010 7:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

That's what so great about this place; this exchange leaves me with a feeling we're old friends, or new ones that share an experience that is so significant, it bonds you forever...I know, I know; talk about pathetically melodramatic, but the way you just described the Eleven is precisely how I think of it.

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply I don't like all the different manifestations of StSt, as I do, but the Eleven varied over a much narrower range of variation/exploration/etc, as you note.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 10, 2010 2:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

The Other One is Tell's big favorite from 12-29-68... I believe he's restraining himself from talking about '68 these days, though. I understand the feeling; you can only say the same thing so many times!

The only source I knew of for Latvala playing the 11-1-68 first-set Viola Lee is Jim Powell, in his release notes:
http://www.mail-archive.com/deadlists@nemesis.cs.berkeley.edu/msg02185.html
If true, it means that set is in the vault; perhaps we could ask Lemieux about it?
(But who knows, maybe Latvala had it buried with him, along with the 2-19-69 Dark Star and other treasures too good to share...)

And hey, if you ever wanted to meet Latvala, this is a pretty funny transcript from someone who DID ask him a bunch of questions at one of the release parties:
http://www.agitators.com/gd/dick_darkstar.html

And 10/18/72 WAS the mirrorball Dark Star, it's mentioned in a review here: "Those of us there will never forget the mirror ball!"
And at setlists.net: "As Dark Star got underway, they hit a mirror ball with a spot and the whole place seemed to shift into another dimension."
So now that's three separate confirmations! Now don't you REALLY wish you were there?

(By the way, what's become of that TLEO jam?)

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 11, 2010 1:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Thank you for the Latvala link. I think I read that once years ago. Makes me want to watch that tour of the vault video again.

Though I've never heard the stories about 2/19/69, or Latvala being buried with anything. Interesting.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Sep 11, 2010 7:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Ack! It was just a joke about Latvala being buried with rare vault tapes! I don't want to start any rumors like that....

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Poster: Jim F Date: Sep 11, 2010 1:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Oh, and I forgot...

I totally forgot about that "TLEO Jam" I was supposed to send you! I might have even uploaded it but just forgot to email you the link. I'll have to dig it up and look. I think I still have your email address from when we swapped a few some months back, I'll get back to you soon on that.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Sep 10, 2010 6:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

Ha--was just talking about it with respect to EC and CREAM as JG reaches a level of speed/energy/precision on that one that in a way, is exactly what draws me to CREAM.

Yes, I would pick the OOne from that night as probably my fav DEAD tune, though StSt is "it" in a more general way (lyrics, etc.), live. And, certainly it's my fav "live song" if that's the thread we're in (sorry, don't know where I've landed just now).

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Poster: bluestones Date: May 23, 2011 6:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: New Potato Caboose

10/13 and 11/1 cut. It's a tragedy about 11/1 because you can tell that the bass solo (fading out at the end) was probably incredible. But 10/12 doesn't have any cuts. They just decided to go into a drum solo.



Did you know that Jimi was supposed to jam with them at that show?



-Bluestones.